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Transcript: Alex Jones Interviews Michael Shrimpton: The Murder of Dr. David Kelly

The Alex Jones Show

Alex Jones: Before we go to our first guest, who Iím honoured to have, well our guest for this hour, I wanted to just remind you that Dr David Kelly was the head of the Level-4 Porton Down Bio-weapons lab in Wiltshire, England. And he was then the head British weapons inspector whoíd been pro-war. He then came back and leaked information that `look Iím a hawk for this war but Iím not gonna lie. Saddam doesnít have weapons of mass destruction. And Tony Blair mis-used my assessment.í

Well suddenly he wound up dead. He told British and US colleagues that `Iím gonna be murdered and found dead in the woods if I donít shut up.í

This is now mainstream news. Three top doctors have gone public who have looked at the autopsy results and say he was clearly, he clearly did not commit suicide, and we have that posted at and So a lot of people are starting to go public on this.

There were rumours of this last week that somebody who had been inside the British government had sources who said that they could confirm that Dr David Kelly had been killed, but the folks that got that story, I guess didnít take time out to go ahead and get in contact with the individual who was bringing forward this information himself. Weíve done that and heís coming up here in just a few minutes and weíre so honoured to have him with us here on the show. Heís Michael Shrimpton and Michael Shrimpton has a long bio. I did some research on him over the weekend. Michael Shrimpton, of course, is a national security lawyer, that is barrister, in government matters. Heís written for the Journal for International Security Affairs. He has given advice and briefed the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, thatís the US Senate. Heís given speeches and consulted all over western Europe and the United States. And of course heís been an invited guest of the State Department.

So heís a mainstream guy, and I was very impressed talking to him. Weíre about to break for a quick three minute break, come back and join a bunch of stations that carry news during this segment. And Iíll briefly re-cap who our guest is and weíll go to him. Michael Shrimpton is on the line with us, and again weíre gonna break and come back, and he has some bombshell information for you from his sources inside MI5 and MI6. Again, heís a national security lawyer, that is barrister, who has advised the United States Senate Intelligence Committee. So you wanna have your tape recorders going, you wanna call your friends and family and tell them to tune into this show. And one of our great writers, Simon, is going to have an article written for us by this evening that will be posted on the websites as well.

[Commercial Break]

Weíre going to have an article this evening on the websites. Itíll appear first on and I wanna thank Simon, and I wanna thank Rowena and Paul Watson and all the folks that have been working on this story and for getting us this guest. And again heís Michael Shrimpton and a national security lawyer or barrister, and heís written for major anti-terrorism journals. He has given his expert advice to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence for the US Senate, and the bio goes on and on. Heís also been involved in a lot of prominent, high profile cases in England. I came across that in my research on him. And heís a really nice fella, during the break I was talking to him and I said `Yíknow, I hope you donít end up in the woods like Dr David Kellyí, and he said `Well, no, by going public you protect yourself.í

And thatís the truth. For other government whistleblowers, telling the truth is what protects you. If you covertly leak something, thatís whatís dangerous. So he protects himself by going on air. And obviously because of all of his sources heís a great source for all of us.

Michael, good to have you on the show with us.

Michael Shrimpton: [inaudible]

AJ: Just, for folks around the world who arenít very familiar with Dr David Kelly, hard to believe people arenít, could you re-cap who he was, what happened to him and then from your sources you even know down to the specifics of how they killed him and from your sources who was behind the killing. Can you just go through it for us?

MS: Yes, David Kelly was probably the most respected microbiologist in the United Kingdom. Certainly one who specialised in weapons of mass destruction. And he was the head of our main WMD laboratory at Porton Down in Wiltshire. He was very involved in the dismantling, verification of the dismantling of the Soviet WMD programmes after the end of the Cold War. He spent some time inside what was the bad old USSR. He was the senior British inspector on UNSCOM, the UN mission inside Iraq. He spent some considerable time in Baghdad. He was working very closely with our overseas intelligence service, MI6 or the Secret Intelligence Service, and he was a major, high-value, British intelligence asset. He was a good man. Decorated, awarded the CMG, Commander of St Michael and St George. Highly regarded and well liked too within the British intelligence community, and also respected in the United States.

AJ: And then suddenly Tony Blairís smearing him in the press and he ends up dead, and the witnesses according to the London Times and their publications, saw four men in black uniforms standing around him, they run off and `Oh, itís a suicideí. Go over the whole controversy of, I mean Dr David Kelly was a hawk for the war, but he wasnít going to put out false intelligence. Go through that for folks that missed out on it.

MS: Well, yes. David Kelly briefed in a British BBC journalist called Andrew Gilligan and also spoke to another journalist for the BBC Televisionís Newsnight programme, and he briefed in both journalists along the lines that the case for, the WMD case for war with Iraq had been exaggerated. Thereís a lot of dispute about exactly what was said and what wasnít said. The BBC Today programme which is the leading radio current affairs programme led with a story from Andrew Gilligan, which didnít name David Kelly as Andrewís source. Now we know that David Kelly was, and my own intelligence sources confirmed that before the BBC itself confirmed it on Sunday 20th July. David Kelly was outed in the media, big dispute as to who authorised his name to be given to the media, and he was asked to appear before a committee in the House of Commons. There was a lot of controversy about what the government had been told, how truthful a dossier that they had prepared on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction was, and shortly after he gave evidence to the House of Commons, he was found dead on Friday 18th July of last year. He was found dead. There is a dispute over exactly where he was found.

According to the official version of events he was found dead in a copse, or a wood, at a place called Harrowdown Hill, between the village where he lived and the River Thames. But the forensic tent, itís noticeable, Alex, that the forensic tents that were set up by the local police force, Thames Valley Police, were actually set up in the field. Why you would have someone killed in the woods and have the police tent over the scene of the crime set up in the field, no-one has yet been able to explain to my satisfaction.

Now the government were blamed for causing the death, but the way the government were criticised was this: that they had caused his name to be leaked to the media. That had put him under intolerable pressure and he had allegedly committed suicide. The initial media reports all went with suicide and the mainstream media in the UK is still reporting it as a suicide. The government responded very quickly and brought in a Law Lord, Lord Hutton, whoíd previously been Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland. And the Hutton Inquiry has very recently reported. Lord Hutton didnít challenge the suicide verdict, there was no cross-examination of witnesses before the Hutton Inquiry as to the cause of death. It was assumed that it was suicide and the BBC were essentially blamed for poor reporting, the government were let off the hook.

The Hutton Report, Iím sorry to say, is widely seen as a whitewash and itís been rubbished. A very senior British Intelligence officer recently retired, a Lieutenant Colonel, Crispin Black, who was on the Defence Intelligence Staff until 2002, has basically described the report as a `laughing stockí and I respectfully agree.

AJ: Now Iíve seen major polls where over two thirds of the British people believe itís a complete fraud. I mean obviously Tony Blair hires one of his cronies to come in and say `Oh you didnít do anything wrongí and then even thatís a whitewash of a larger whitewash because obviously according to the medical reports, the coronerís report, the doctors that have looked at it, the suicide verdict Ė thatís a fraud itself and letís go into your sources and what really happened to Dr David Kelly.

MS: Absolutely, although I wouldnít be allowed to say that Tony Blair had hired a judge, you understand that in England we donít hire judges [chuckles]. The judge is on the State payroll anyway and I wouldnít want to be thought of as suggesting that anybody had put a little extra funds Lord Huttonís way. Iím quite sure Lord Hutton took no extra payment.

AJ: Well what Iím saying is, is that obviously Huttonís been involved with whatís been called whitewashes in the past.

MS: The Report, Iím sorry to say, with respect to Lord Hutton, the Report is a complete whitewash.

AJ: Well I mean they take, I mean you have a government institution whitewashing for another government institution.

MS: Well exactly. This is the problem with appointing senior judges to hold inquiries. Thereís been a lot of adverse comment in England. The senior judge is, by definition, part of the establishment. Itís very difficult to judge, of course, if he whitewashes the government, everybody says `Well it is a whitewashí. If he blames the government, well itís asking too much of a senior judge to go around blaming the government. Itís not what senior judges do.

AJ: I mean what do you expect? I mean here we have it where Janet Reno hires somebody to investigate Waco, I mean she literally appoints the investigator. We have Bush controlling the 9/11 panel, I mean itís ridiculous. But getting into the specifics of Dr David Kellyís clear murder, letís go over that.

MS: Well, absolutely. Now on Saturday 19th July, David was murdered on the 17th, on Saturday the 19th, within 48 hours of the murder, I was contacted by a British intelligence officer who told me heíd been murdered. That didnít take me by surprise, I was suspicious of the suicide theory from the word go. Now that source told me heíd done some digging and discovered that, he didnít name names but he discovered that it had been known about in Whitehall prior to the 17th July that David Kelly was going to be taken down. Now normally with a suicide, Alex, you appreciate that we donít like people knowing in advance. If people know in advance of the death, that normally points away from suicide.

AJ: Yes


AJ: [Chuckles]

MS: [Chuckles] Exactly. Now a lot of work has been done since the murder, and thereís been particularly a great deal of medical research. Now itís absolutely clear that David was murdered. The suicide theory just doesnít hold water at all. The official version of events is that he took some Co-Proxamol tablets. Now Co-Proxamol is available in England only by prescription. There is a problem with that because there is no evidence that David Kelly was ever prescribed Co-Proxamol. Now Co-Proxamol I think is available in the United States, itís a combination of Dextropropoxythene and paracetamol in a ratio of 1 to 10. Itís not a very powerful painkiller and the level of Co-Proxamol in the blood stream according to the official toxicology report was about one third, i.e. not enough to kill him. Now 29 tablets were allegedly missing, or were missing, from a packet of Co-Proxamol found by the body. The problem is that there is only one fifth of a tablet in the stomach and thereís no evidence of substantial vomiting. There was a little bit of vomit found on the body but not much. And thereís no analysis done of the material.

The stomach contents do not support the suggestion that he ingested 29 Co-Proxamol tablets. Interestingly, the initial media reports, and when we look at staged suicides or political assassinations, I find it very useful to concentrate on the early media reports because if there is a cover-up, usually the cover-up kicks in after 12, 24, 36 hours. The first media reports are very often the most accurate, particularly if theyíre coming from local news organisations. The early media reports made no mention of a bottle of water. The theory is, Alex, that he took these Co-Proxamol tablets having set out on a walk, in the course of which he was going to commit suicide, and took with him a bottle of water to swallow the tablets. Problem Ė no mention in early media reports of any bottle of water. That detail was only added in after a group of concerned people in England, professionals called the `Kelly Groupí had made the point and it was already out into the open. Now, the suicide version of events canít be right. He was found with one wrist slashed and the ulnar artery, which is the arteryÖ

AJ: Tell you what, weíve got a break. Weíre gonna come back and go over the circumstantial evidence and then your sourceís inside intelligence that say `Hey, we got the word he was about to be killed and then who killed him. Weíll talk about that too.

[Commercial Break]

AJ: Alright, this is a quick segment. Weíve got a longer segment coming up. Plenty of time to go over this evidence with our guest, and our guest would like to take calls so later in the interview, if youíd like to talk to our guest the toll-free number to join us is 1-800 259 9231.

Weíre talking to Michael Shrimpton and heís a national security barrister in England. He has given testimony and advice to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence for the US Senate, and heís obviously very knowledgeable about intelligence and the activities of intelligence agencies. He has a lot of sources in MI5 and MI6. You just heard him talk about one source inside British intelligence that said they got word that Kelly was about to be killed by the government a week or so before he actually died. I want to go back into that in more detail coming up here in a few minutes. But Mr Shrimpton was then going over the material evidence of the murder and youíve gotten to the point of the slitting of the wrist.

MS: Yeah, he clearly didnít slit his own wrist. The idea that he exsanguinated, that he died from haemorrhaging, he bled out from a cut to one wrist only, to the ulnar artery, is just a nonsense Alex. Firstly the artery that was cut was the ulnar artery which is more difficult to reach, itís on the little finger side of the hand. Itís deeper than the radial artery. Why go for an artery deep in the wrist when you can slit an artery much closer to the surface of the skin. Thatís the first problem.

The second problem, he, according to the autopsy report, he severed or transected the artery. But once you transect an artery, we have something called vaso-constriction. The artery retracts and that promotes clotting. Itís very difficult to bleed out if you sever one artery only.

AJ: And I would second that with David Halpin, a doctor, a prominent orthopaedic surgeon, as well as Stephen Frost, specialist in diagnostics. I mean thereís a whole bunch of top-level doctors saying `This is a complete fraud.í

MS: Exactly. One doctor went around promoting the official version of events and attacked these doctors in the Guardian newspaper in England and talked about slashing `wristsí. Well David Kelly on the official version of events didnít slash his wrists, plural, he slashed one wrist only. Itís highly unusual. Firstly, wrist slashing is not an effective method of committing sucide. One of the reasons people do it in a bath of hot waterÖ

AJ: That keeps the veins open

MS: Ö Is that you need to keep the temperature high. Yup. If youíre out in the open, if youíre not keeping the temperature high, the wrists, the arteries will not stay dilated. It is very difficult indeed to bleed out in the open even if you slit both wrists. Slitting one wrist only Ė much less blood loss and we have conflicting accounts for the amount of blood found by the body. The most reliable eye-witnesses, in my judgement, are probably the paramedics who found him. They talked about comparatively little blood loss. There is no solid evidence that any large, that a lot of blood had left the body. There were no adequate measurements of the amount of blood left in the major vessels, in the heart and so on.

AJ: Now talking to you earlier today, itís pretty clear that they drug him up, then as heís dying slit his wrist to create this scene. From your sources inside the intelligence community, what really happened to Dr David Kelly?

MS: In my judgement, based on conversations with sources and with medical experts and a great deal of work has been done over this since the murder, he was probably murdered by a combination of an injection, not through tablets, but an intravenous injection of Dextropropoxythene and paracetamol, the constituents of Co-Proxamol, and a muscle relaxant called Succinylcholine. Now Succinylcholine is a favourite method of assassinating people, itís used by intelligence agencies, particularly the French DGSE. Succinylcholine, although itís used therapeutically for treating [inaudible] incubation and so on, can be lethal and in combination with the constituents of Co-Proxamol, 30 milligrammes would probably have been a lethal dose. The problem for someone investigating an assassination by Succinylcholine is that it metabolises even after death and you only pick up the metabolites. In other words itís one of those drugs that leaves no trace unless you have a very expert pathologist who really knows what he or she is doing.

AJ: Yeah all you can find is what it metabolises into. You cannot find the original chemical.

MS: Exactly. So you have to look for the enzymes it metabolises into. You wonít find any trace of the original drug. [inaudible]

AJ: Well itís like with AIDS, you look for the antibodies Ďcos you canít find the virus.

MS: Well, very effectively, yeah. Itís fairly clear that the slash to the wrist was done to disguise the puncture wound. Thereís no puncture wound, but of course the slash to the wrist wouldíve disguised it. Now the palm or face of the wrist, effectively the inside face of the wrist, is a very popular method, you know anaesthesiologists would use it to inject. Itís quite realistic to suppose that David Kelly was injected in the wrist with the muscle relaxant and the Dextropropoxythene and the

AJ: Tell you what, weíve got a break again. Weíll come back and get into your source and take some calls.

[Commercial Break]

AJ: Folks, this is very very important, because Tony Blair is a minion of the globalists. Heís the tool whoís trying to destroy British national sovereignty, to bring the British people under the dominance of the un-elected unaccountable European Union whether they like it or not. Heís been promised the EU head-ship under a new expanded, empowered EU, if he can get Britain into it. He lied about the weapons of mass destruction. Itís clear that if Tony Blair was to have been exposed, that would certainly hurt those in Europe that want to get rid of British sovereignty.

And talking to Michael Shrimpton, our guest, our intelligence expert who has his sources over there in England. Talking to you earlier before the show, you talked about your sources, the evidence you have that it looks like that it was elements of British intelligence or of the government using French intelligence to go and do their dirty work which, by the way, is a standard operation if intelligence agencies are getting rid of some of their own people, they will generally use a sister agency in a sister country. I know this is very delicate, Michael, but can you go over what you talked to me off-air about?

MS: Yes Alex. Firstly I should make it clear that I have absolutely no negation that anybody in either of the British intelligence agencies, MI5, the Security Service, or MI6, The Secret Intelligence Service, being involved. On the contrary, my sources are telling me that both services are extremely unhappy. Now the indications are, now you understand Iím being cautious on air, but there indications pointing towards an involvement by the French external intelligence agency the DGSE or Direction Gťnťrale de la Sťcuritť Extťrieure.

AJ: But obviously theyíve got a liaison within the government, the British government. Theyíve gotta have someone authorising this, or are you saying itís just a rogue element wanting to get rid of somebody who could mess up the EU?

MS: No, again Iíve got to be obviously careful on air, but the indications are that the tasking for the assassination came from within the UK, but I canít name any individual official or minister. The tasking was generated in the UK, went to Paris, was then OKíd in Paris, and on the information available to me, the operational agency for the assassination was DGSE. Now there are also indications, and Iím again, obviously Alex you appreciate Iím expressing myself with caution here, there are indications that DGSE, in order to false-flag the assassination, should their team be discovered, used Iraqi intelligence assets from the Iraqi Mukhabarat agency that were available in Damascus after the fall of Baghdad. And I have one source suggesting that an Iraqi team, thatís to say an ex-Mukhabarat team, recruited in Damascus with the assistance of the Syrian intelligence operation, also the Mukhabarat, were flown into Corsica in the seven days prior to the assassination of David Kelly. Now the standard French practice when they carry out assassinations is to take their own team out. I am very doubtful that any of the people involved directly in the assassination of David Kelly are still alive. It would be highly unusual for the French to permit anyone involved in the assassination for them to survive.

AJ: Well weíve seen this in the past. Youíve had the big controversy the BBCís reported on about British intelligence using Al-Qaeda individuals to try to kill Muammar Gaddaffi. I mean this is a classic deal. Of course the Iraqis were allies during the eighties and so a lot of these guys were trained in the US, trained in England, trained in France, and then bringing these assets back in.

MS: Yeah, that was a mess [laughs]. That was, er, we could spend another hour on that, Alex. Whoever authorised that operation did not know what they were doing. That was just a total shambles.

AJ: Well, I mean wouldnít these Iraqis know that they were doing this hit, that they were going to be in deep trouble afterwards, or were they told `You donít have a choiceí?

MS: Not necessarily. They may not have worked for French intelligence before. If youíre offered a job by French intelligence I would turn it down.

AJ: [Laughs]

MS: Anybody approached by French intelligence to do a hit, I would strongly advise them to turn it down or even increase their life insurance. They were probably, I mean assuming it was Iraqis and I canít be positive; there are indications pointing towards an Iraqi involvement, I canít be positive about DGSE. I have a range of sources as youíve said, and those sources point to Paris and they point towards DGSE. [Inaudible]

AJ: Now DGSE is the equivalent of an MI6, itís outward.

MS: Exactly.

AJ: DGSU is internal?

MS: Itís the DST, Direction de la Surveillance du Territoire, which is the internal agency. And the DST are internal, the DGSE are external. Letís just put it this way, Alex, the operation has all the hallmarks of DGSE. British intelligence, or my sources, are furious, theyíre not happy at all because David, after all, was a British intelligence asset.

AJ: Well by the way, my webmaster, Paul Watson, has talked to a major British news reporter who has talked directly to British intelligence, and they said months ago Ė Iím talking six months ago Ė the same thing that you just said here.

MS: Well that is interesting because that would be almost certainly a different source to mine. It might be weíre talking to the same people. One of the problems in the intelligence world is `loop-backí, something you think is independent confirmation, may [chuckles] may turn out to be..

AJ: No, I understand. But I mean clearly from the circumstantial, from the material evidence youíve got murder, youíve got a cover-up, youíve got a spin, youíve got a motive Ė

MS: Exactly.

AJ: - Youíve got him telling the US doctor, his colleague, `If I donít shut up Iím gonna be found dead in the woods. Theyíre gonna kill me.í I mean this is all public now, we have him saying `Theyíre gonna kill me and put me in the woods.í You said that youíve talked to intelligence people whoíve said `Yeah, they knew Kelly was about to get it, before he even died. Can you elaborate on that?

MS: Yeah, the source that spoke to me on the 19th July, after the assassination, you see this source was a friend of David Kellyís, so David was a friend of a friend. This source obviously is not very happy. It didnít take him five minutes to work out that this was murder, not suicide. He then made enquiries and he established from other sources that the murder was known about in advance, i.e. the murder of David Kelly was known about within a section of Whitehall, prior to the 17th July, and he was very unhappy. That source came through to me and effectively Iím acting as an interface between the media and the intelligence community. It is not possible for the intelligence community to do what Iím doing now and go on to a radio show and broadcast it around the world.

AJ: Well you have an impeccable record and youíve been involved in a lot of high profile cases. Youíve testified before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence for our Senate here and you write for major intelligence journals. Youíve certainly impressed me, Mr Shrimpton, because I study this stuff continually and youíre just massively knowledgeable, more knowledgeable in many areas than I am.

MS: If I could just say, I should correct, I didnít testify before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the briefing I gave was a closed briefing entirely.

AJ: Thatís what I meant.

MS: The Senators on the Committee, I had the privilege of meeting Senator Graham when he was chairman, just briefly, Senator Graham might not even recall the meeting. We met briefly when I happened to be in Congress on another matter. A very nice man.

AJ: Well just to be clear, sir, I know when you guys testify itís always public-

MS: (Yeah / Cough ?)

AJ: - here, most of what they do, obviously you know, is behind doors, thatís what I meant.

MS: Exactly, yeah. This is a, with the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, I was invited in to their operation - theyíre very nice people Ė and this was a confidential briefing on a case in which Iíd been involved, which obviously I canít discuss on the air as a courtesy to the guys and girls I briefed in. Very nice people.

AJ: Absolutely. Now I was just going over some of your bio for folks. Now, as we sit here looking at this, for those who donít understand why an element inside England would want to use someone outside England, who would then use another membrane between them and the hit-men, thatís just standard operating procedure. But why would the French be happy to go along with getting rid of Kelly?

MS: Well, it would depend on the French assessment of whether or not the government would be at risk. The French would definitely want Tony Blair, Tony Blairís government to remain in office. They would be very concerned indeed at any suggestion that might risk the government. Thereís a very strong geo-political motive for the French retaining their ally. Donít forget that the Blair government is a close ally of President Chirac. There have been a series of private meetings between Prime Minister Blair and President Chirac since the [inaudible]

AJ: And theyíre pushing the Euro, so they believe that if Blair is in danger, the Euroís in danger.

MS: Well, exactly. Tony Blair is the most high profile politician in the UK committed to destroying the national currency. And the French very much want Blair to remain in office for geo-political reasons. Weíve just had a very unusual summit between Blair, Chirac and the German Chancellor Schroeder. I have to be very cautious, Iím not naming Tony Blair as the person who generated the tasking for the assassination. Indeed, I am quite comfortable that it wasnít Tony Blair who put the tasking into Paris. Now, question marks: What did he know and when did he know it? There I canít be so confident.

AJ: Well obviously Tony Blairís a puppet. I mean heís not running the entire mechanism of the government, so-

MS: Heís a puppet. Heís a puppet Prime Minister anyway. Heís committed to the European Union. I mean he takes his orders, like anyone says we should be in the European Union, you take your orders from Brussels, because thatís what government from Brussels involves.

AJ: Exactly, so Ė

MS: Thatís the constitutional position. You know European Community law is supreme, according to the European Union, and it takes precedence over British law.

AJ: Yeah your Magna Cartaís gone if that sucker passes.

MS: [Chuckles] It does, these days, Alex. But thatís a broader issue. Youíre right incidentally on the false flagging. Iím often called upon formally or informally Ė usually informally Ė to deconstruct assassinations, to look at a particular assassination and try and work out whatís happened. Basically, in counter-intelligence work we would normally recognise eight methods of trying to disguise an assassination.

First method is you would try and blame it on your opponents. That was done in Sweden recently with the assassination of Anna Lindh, the very nice Swedish Foreign Minister. An attempt was made to blame that on opponents of Sweden joining the Euro.

You can blame it on a terrorist organisation. That was done particularly with the IRA and the attempted assassination of Margaret Thatcher; the assassination of the war hero, Airey Neave, a Conservative MP, was blamed on the Irish National Liberation Army. The terrorist organisation might carry out the assassination, but in almost every case the terrorist organisation is working for a government.

Third method of disguising assassinations, Alex, in my experience is to false-flag them, where itís blamed on another agency. Now there are elements of false-flagging in the Kelly assassination, because had the team which carried out the assassination been discovered, clearly it could have been false-flagged via Baghdad, and you know, weíd have heard about three Iraqis in Oxfordshire, if assuming it was Iraqis for the sake of argument, the blame would then go to Baghdad and Paris would be let off the hook. The Iranians tried that quite successfully with the attempted assassination of the Pope, back in the early 1980ís.

Then you have the lone-gunman theory. Now you guys are very familiar with that, because youíll recall that somebody tried to blame Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy-

AJ: Ha ha. Yeah.

MS: - an amusing suggestion to those of us know a little bit more about that assassination than is in the public domain. Weíve had a lone-gunman, a classic example of a lone-gunman assassination theory in Europe with the assassination of the Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, which was blamed on a lone-gunman. An explanation which doesnít carry much weight with me since in the photographs of the assassin that I saw, there was what appeared to me to be a very thin wire leading up to an ear-piece. Normally, Alex, lone-gunmen donít run around with radios and ear-pieces, particularly high-tech ones with-

AJ: Well it was the same thing with Yitzhak Rabin.

MS: Yeah.

AJ: Iím mean Netanyahuís giving speeches about `Somebody ought to get rid of this guyí, and then Rabinís security steps back and they blow him away, I mean Ė

MS: Well certainly respected commentators, Gerald [Gordon] Thomas is one who would say that the Rabin assassination definitely not down to a lone-gunman.

Then youíve got illness. Now this is fairly rare. Itís difficult to fake an illness. It was done in the case of a British politician, Hugh Gaitskill, who was opposed to Britain joining the European Economic Community, and he came down with a tropical disease in Moscow in the middle of winter. Generally speaking you-

AJ: [Laughs]

MS: [Laughs] It was spotted at the time as an assassination, but MI5, although theyíd brought in Porton Down, where David Kelly worked incidentally, Porton Down were brought in but Porton Down couldnít work out how the disease which got Hugh Gaitskill, which is Lupus Disseminata, a very nasty disease indeed - attacks the organs, very similar to Ebola Ė how this tropical disease had found its way to Moscow, and they couldnít work out how, what the agent was for getting the Lupus into Hugh Gaitskill. We now know it was probably aerosol, but at the time that technology wasnít known about in England.

Then youíve got accident and weíve, there are a couple of interesting political assassinations in Zimbabwe, of road accidents which I would put a question mark against. Itís less common to try and stage accidents, but itís not unknown. A friend of mine was nearly taken out in Argentina a few years ago in what looked to me to be a slightly dubious accident.

AJ: Well what about Princess Diana? She says `Prince Charles is gonna kill me in a staged automobile accidentí and then she dies.

MS: Well the Diana assassination is certainly, probably the classic recent example of trying to make it look like an accident. Yes.

AJ: Weíve been having all these microbiologists in government weapons programmes, will be in a, walking down the street of the university, and a van jumps the rail, chases them, runs them over then backs back over them, drives back over them, and the police just go `An accident, a hit and run.í

MS: [Laughs] Well if you want the truth of the Diana assassination, the best people to talk to are the Israelis, because they had Danny Yatom, whoís a lovely guy by the way, who was then head of Mossad in í97, who are really nice people, Danny had teams, I think, on the entrance to the Alma Tunnel and on the exit as well. Interesting man. Lovely chap.

AJ: Tunnels where?

MS: This is the Alma Tunnel where Diana where Diana was taken out.

AJ: Oh, yes. Yes.

MS: The seventh method of disguising assassinations in my experience is to try and use a naturally occurring poison. A favourite of intelligence agencies is Saxitoxin, which occurs in shellfish so itís possible, providing you can get some shellfish into the stomach of the victim, Saxitoxin assassination providing youíve successfully disguised the puncture wound, or you can find a method of getting the poison into the body. You know, you can get away with that if youíre lucky.

And then the final method is the one tried in the case of David Kelly, that you try and make the murder look like suicide. But itís very difficult. In this case the attempt to slash the wrist was pointless, because he was already dead. And thereís not enough blood. None of the witnesses, in my judgement, reports enough blood consistent with him bleeding out and the medical experts weíve talked to, and Iíve been insisting on this, the medical experts generally reckon that for this, youíd be looking for five pints, thatís English pints of blood. Thereís nothing Iíve seen that persuades me that more than a pint was lost and thatís about consistent with what youíd expect from transecting one ulnar artery. Completely transecting it, it then retracts, clots, and you donít get, you get surprisingly little bleeding from cutting your ulnar artery. [inaudible]

AJ: Well, sir, can we keep you a little bit into the next hour, because I want to come back and go to Pat and Jim and Lenny and others that have been patiently holding?

MS: Iíd be delighted to talk to you. I didnít realise, Iím sorry Iíve been talking on and Iíve been keeping people on the phone. I apologise to them and I look forward to talking to them.

AJ: Oh no, this is important information because this shows the type of things that are going on in our world and how the media tries to spin this, but why do you think the media have been so willing to go along with the official government story that itís a suicide?

MS: Well, the political consequences, the mainstream media in the UK are largely committed to UK membership of the European Union, and my guess is that most of the newspapers in the UK would be worried about the political consequences of going public with any story suggesting David Kelly was assassinated. And then youíve got technical competence, there arenít that many good investigative journalists in the UK. Itís not that difficult to get the mainstream media to buy an official version of events.

AJ: Yeah, itís easy. Just [inaudible] the Fed says this, just write it and go drink a beer.

[Commercial Break]

AJ: Okay folks. Weíre back live here. And weíre about to go to your calls, everybodyís been holding patiently for our guest. Going back to our guest, Michael Shrimpton, national security lawyer, barrister in England. Michael?

MS: Yeah.

AJ: Continuing with what we were discussing and just briefly recapping, you have a source who, in intelligence, talked to his other sources and it was widely known in intelligence that there was an order to get rid of Kelly, even before he died.

MS: My source learned after the assassination that others in Whitehall were aware of the assassination in advance, yes. And that source had spoken to, obviously he was a friend of David Kellyís, knew him well, had worked with him, and clearly once his friend was found dead in a wood, made investigations and when he made investigations he discovered that this assassination was known about in advance. Yes.

AJ: And he told, and this is in the Associated Press, BBC, you name it, he told an American doctor who was on the team with him in Iraq, he said `If I donít shut up about this, Iím gonna end up dead in the woods.í

MS: Yeah. There was also an interesting conversation with David Broucher who was formerly British Ambassador in Prague in the Czech Republic, along similar lines. That, David Broucher I think was a witness, in fact, to the Hutton Inquiry. David Kelly worked, I never had the privilege of meeting him, I would have loved to have met him, my friend certainly worked with him and knew him. David worked very closely with the United States intelligence and worked very closely with Sergeant Mai Pederson in particular, but I get the impression he was very highly thought of in the US intelligence community as well.

AJ: Was this done by the pro-EU crowd? The globalists, I would call them? To put out a chilling effect into everybody in intelligence to keep your mouths shut?

MS: Broadly speaking, yes. Now motive is another question altogether. Itís tolerably clear, one canít be certain, tolerably clear that he was taken out in order to prevent him talking. Now what is unclear is whether he was taken out because there was concern he was about to acquire intelligence that might be highly damaging, or taken out because he had acquired it and was about to talk to the media. We know there was concern about the extent of his media contacts, I mean Ė

AJ: He was also a microbiologist -

MS: Correct.

AJ: - and thereís been a whole bunch of those dying around the world. Letís take a call. Pat in Indiana, thanks for holding. Youíre on the air with our guest, go ahead.

Pat: Yes, this is a little off the subject, but it has to do with Ė

AJ: Maíam, you donít have your radio on, do you? Or a speakerphone or something? Cos Iím not gonna be able to talk to you if you donít turn it off.

Pat: He did.

AJ: Okay go ahead.

Pat: Okay, itís about a couple of subjects I want to air

AJ: Iím gonna have to go ahead and put her on hold. Iím sorry Maíam, but somethingís wrong with your phone or you got your radio on. Letís try to bring her back up one more time and then Iíll have to let her go. Pat, go ahead.

Pat: This is on a couple of Ė I donít know whatís wrong because we turned our radio off.

AJ: Okay, itís alright. Go ahead.

Pat: Okay. This is on a couple of subjects, one from Earlham College and one from the Town Hall meeting I had with Mike [inaudible] on Friday.

AJ: Maíam, is this concerning our guest.

Pat: No.

AJ: Because you told us that you wanted to talk to our guest. Iím gonna have to put you on hold.

MS: Nice to talk to you anyway, Pat.

AJ: Yeah, nice to talk to you. You know weíre about to break and start the next hour and then weíll sort out whatís going on with the calls and weíll get to Ďem. Lets um, I know thereís a whole bunch of calls here for you, weíll try to sort Ďem out and find out whatís going on as we talk to our guest, Michael Shrimpton, a national intelligence barrister in England. I bet you see all kinds of just amazing stuff in your job.

MS: I do, yes [laughs]. Not all that I can talk about on the air. And I meet some interesting people. And I had a very interesting visit to Israel in the middle of last year, looking at the new security fence being built.

AJ: Alright, well, I hear the music, so that means weíve got to go ahead and break. And when we get back and start the third hour weíll go straight to your calls, folks. You wanna talk to our guest, itís 1-800 259 9231. 1-800 259 9231.

[Commercial Break]

AJ: Alright, my friends. Now into the third hour. Weíre talking to Michael Shrimpton, national security barrister in England with his intelligence sources concerning the murder of Dr David Kelly. And British people are very suspicious as are many other folks around the world. And more and more is coming out. Letís go ahead and go to Jim in Illinois. Jim, thanks for holding, youíre on the air with our guest. Go ahead.

Jim: I have two quick questions. Mr Shrimpton, what is David Kellyís wife saying about his murder?

MS: Janice Kelly Ė hi Jim Ė Janice Kelly accepts that it was suicide, at least thatís her official position.

Jim: Next question. Why didnít the British, or the American or the Israeli intelligence assassinate Saddam Hussein before the war?

MS: Well thatís a big question, probably better directed to intelligence officials. Assassination is very - Iím opposed to assassinations in principle, one of the reasons why Iím outraged by David Kellyís assassination Ė assassination is a double-edged sword and I think had we gone in and taken out Saddam Hussein, that would have rebounded on both Britain and America very quickly. So I think the call not to assassinate him was probably well made. Itís also more difficult to assassinate politicians like Saddam Hussein than first appears. You remember the CIAís farcical efforts to try to get rid of Fidel Castro.

Jim: Right.

MS: They had a go for several years and they didnít get anywhere close to assassinating him with exploding cigars and what-have-you. I would say the call not to take Saddam Hussein out was right. The danger with assassinating somebody like Saddam Hussein, you build up inside Iraq popular support for his regime Ė

AJ: Yeah, you turn him into a martyr and also itíll cause a revolution even before you get there and you wonít control, kind of, the way the balls break. Thanks for the call. Thatís a really good question. Anything else Jim?

Jim: No thankyou.

MS: Great to talk to you, Jim.

AJ: Iíve got a question.

MS: Great state, Illinois. Been there.

AJ: [Chuckles] Iíve got a question for you, Michael. Where is all this going as more and more doctors and people come forward, and as you come forward and say itís clear that he was murdered. I mean where does all this go for Tony Blair?

MS: Well there are indications that he may be preparing to resign. Heís denied officially over the weekend that heís been planning to resign, which is an indication that he is. Never believe anything until itís officially denied. A number of key advisors have bailed out. Alastair Campbell, another key advisor, Philip Gould, has just been offered a peerage, which is a form of retirement we have in England that you donít have in the United States Ė

AJ: Michael Meacher, months ago.

MS: Michael Meacher, yes. There are now calls, Michael Meacherís just issued a call, heís former government Ė nice chap Ė former government minister. Michael has issued a call over the last weekend, calling on him to go. There are indications that he is on his way out, but you know, itís up to him. Or up to his party.

AJ: Well that would certainly be good. I mean have you ever had a Prime Minister this bad?

MS: Well, thatís a political question. The answer is `probablyí, but I canít remember when. Itís a close toss-up between Tony Blair, John Major and Lord North who lost the American colonies, but from your point of view Lord North was probably quite good to have in Downing Street.

AJ: [Laughs] Thatís funny.

MS: Neville Chamberlain. I think that, without being disrespectful to my Prime Minister on the air, I think itís a close call between Tony Blair and Neville Chamberlain.

AJ: [Laughs]

MS: You have to, you know, you have to, you could have ten different politicians and economists and military strategists sit around a table and come up with ten different answers as to whether Neville Chamberlain surrendered more of Europe than Tony Blair, and whether Tony Blair surrendered more to France and Germany than Neville Chamberlain did. Itís a close run thing.

AJ: Well I think itís clearly Tony Blair if he gets what he wants.

MS: Yes, I had the, I have to say having met Tony Blair, heís not, heís quite a pleasant, personable individual. Heís not a monster when you meet him.

AJ: Well they said that about Adolf Hitler too. Yíknow weíve got a break. Weíll come right back and weíll go to Lenny Bloom whoís been on this story, and weíll also talk to David in Texas and a few other callers for our guest, and then weíll get to Bob and Ron and others, and a bunch of other key news items. Stay with us.

[Commercial Break]

AJ: Just an absolutely amazing and riveting interview over the last hour and eight minutes with our guest - national security barrister, lawyer, who has consulted with the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence here in the US, and given speeches, and consulted around the world, and writes for major terrorism journals - going over well, just a lot of interesting facts for us. Like usually if youíve got some type of terrorist assassination, terrorists killing people, thereís usually a government behind them using them as a go-between. Oh weíve discovered that here in our research too. And going over the evidence of how Dr David Kelly was killed, and the elements inside governments that did it and why. Lets take a few calls. Weíll go to David and Ian and a few others here in a few minutes, but right now lets go to Lenny Bloom whoís been a guest on this show before and has a website []. I know last week they got some rumblings of this story and put it out. Lenny, whatís on your mind?

Lenny: Well welcome, thanks for having me back, Alex, youíre doing a tremendous yeomanís service job. You know the pilots who fly these assassination teams around the world donít have a public responsibility to tell the media, tell the truth, tell people. But the media has a core responsibility. Yíknow these things, thereís so many people involved that Iíve known and been a part of as a spy-pilot over the years. This thing with Dr Kelly is something thatís interesting, ever since the Duke of Edinburgh said he wanted to become a deadly virus and come back and be reincarnated we have kept a biochemical doctors death-list, for good reason. The Duke doesnít want to be suspected or blamed for his actions. Itís really interesting and clear whatís going on here, itís right in front of everybodyís nose.

AJ: Okay Lenny, do you have any questions or comments for our guest?

Lenny: Yeah, I just want to say thanks for coming out, I think thatís great that youíre starting to dig into the whole thing. I think Kelly was number fifty on the death-list, and I think thatís wonderful.

AJ: Lenny, let me ask our guest that. Are you familiar, sir, that thereís been all over the western world, Australia, Russia, western Europe, England, the US, top bio-weapons scientists being murdered and that Kelly just so happened to be one more on that list?

MS: Well Iím aware of an unusually high percentage of microbiologists going south and itís Ė put it this way, itís attracted my interest. I think David Kelly wasnít taken out as part of a systematic campaign to take out WMD scientists.

Lenny: I didnít say that. Heís part of a death-list though and there may be different reason for it.

MS: Hi Lenny, good to hear from you. You mentioned you were a spy pilot. What planes were you flying?

Lenny: Well Iím rather grounded right now!

MS: What did you used to fly?

Lenny: I flew everything from F18ís to F14ís to Cessna 172ís to Bell 206ís and my student became Air Force One helicopter for ten years. Heís a three star general.

MS: I wish I could introduce you to a client of mine who once flew an aeroplane called the Lockheed U-2A over the Soviet Union with a guy called Gary Powers.

AJ: Wow.

MS: Yeah.

AJ: Well thanks for the call, Lenny. I appreciate that. And thanks for all your work.

MS: Great to talk to you, Lenny.

AJ: Yeah, letís talk to David in Texas. David, youíre on the air. Go ahead.

David: Hello sir?

AJ: Yes, go ahead.

MS: Hi David.

David: Hi, thank you for taking my call. I have a quick question on the media. I know that youíre involved in intelligence, but like in our country we donít see a lot of programming on Tel-Aviv and Palestinian television, and I know they present a very, you know er, I donít know er, ethical code of fatwa and things of that such, and we donít [inaudible] a lot of that, and Iím curious [inaudible]

AJ: Okay, Iím trying to understand exactly what youíre saying. Boil it down for us.

David: Well, the promotion of dying for Allah is a shown thing on TV in Tel-Aviv and the media doesnít really focus on that here in the United States. Iím wondering what your view is on that and do you see that in Europe?

MS: Well Ė

David: Iíll go ahead and listen. Thank you.

MS: Okay David. Well always a pleasure to talk to somebody from Ė whereabouts in Texas are you from?

AJ: I believe heís gone.

MS: Oh heís gone. Well let me answer his question as a courtesy to him. Iím not very impressed of media coverage of the middle-east generally. I do subscribe to a very interesting service called MEMRI, the Middle East Media Research Institute, and some of the stuff they come up with on what is broadcast on mainstream media in Egypt and Saudi Arabia concerning Israel is just shocking. Itís like the 1930ís all over again. Very, very disturbing stuff. So Iím not very impressed with mainstream coverage of the middle-east, and that was partly why I went to the middle-east in June, a little fact-finding tour. [Inaudible]

AJ: You were there with the IDF on the ground, what did you learn?

MS: Well I was very impressed with the way the IDF ran check-points. I talked to a check-point commander in Jenin, for example, very impressed with what I saw; very impressed with the security fence which is clearly having an impact in those sectors of the West Bank where itís been erected.[Inaudible]

AJ: Well I know this. We sure need one of those on the southern border of the US.

MS: [Laughs]

AJ: And I want one. That thingís beautiful.

MS: Well I think your southern border is a bit porous and as weíve seen on 9/11, porous borders can present dangers. And er Ė

AJ: Well Iím not kidding, Iíve literally seen photos of that thing and I start salivating on it.

MS: Yeah.

AJ: Because just the raping and killing and robbery and Mexican troops and killing federal officers, and our news doesnít even report on it. I mean it is bedlam on our southern border.

MS: Your southern border is not particularly well protected, with every respect to the guys and girls who are down there protecting it. But, no, they need more resources and er Ė

AJ: But back to the IDF, Iím sorry for interrupting.

MS: Well Iím a big fan of the IDF. I was very impressed meeting and talking with erm, from soldiers up to generals. I think the IDF are doing a good job. I think the Israelis know far more about counter-terrorism than we do in Britain or in the United States. My general line with Israel is I think, we in the west, the rest of the west Ė Israel is part of the west Ė we need to get off the Israelisí back and let them go and do the job. They do know what theyíre doing.

AJ: Well certainly they know how to build a fence and I wish we had one of those.

Ms: [Laughs] The fence is very impressive. Itís more than a fence of course, itís a, youíve got a ditch, youíve got a roadway that allows regular patrolling, easy access to any terrorist incursion, good surveillance, some good, high-tech stuff there. The security barrier is a very impressive development.

AJ: Yeah. Letís go ahead and now and, whoís up next in line here, Stephanie? Ian in Canada, youíre on the air with our guest. Go ahead.

Ian: Thanks Alex. I wanted to ask your guest, I wanted to explore the occultic implications of David Kellyís death and by illustration I want to refer to a case that he may be familiar with Ė Air Marshall Sir Peter Horsley - they tried to take him out like Diana, with rigged brakes on his BMW in the mid-80ís, just between Amesbury Circle and Stonehenge, about 660 yards, if you can believe it, into his drive west along the motorway. There was that occultic association and what Iím wondering is because David Kelly, you reported, probably died on July 17th which is right in the middle of that high holiday they celebrate at Bohemian Grove, Alex. That was the date that Ė

AJ: Iíll tell you what, let me bring this up to him. I donít know if heís aware of it but Skull and Bones, admittedly a weird, occult organisation; Bohemian Grove, I snuck into it, that was on national British television, the footage I shot a few years ago. Itís also aired here. In some of these killings, they do seem to do it in a ritualistic fashion; that was brought up with Princess Diana. Do you want to get into that or is that tooÖ?

MS: No. I donít see, with respect to you in Canada - I donít know where abouts in Canada you are, but itís a great country Ė I donít see any occult relationship with the Kelly assassination at all. Iím not familiar with, I donít know Sir Peter Horsley and Iím not familiar with that. Was that an attempted assassination?

Ian: He claims that he was being used to take somebody else out, but they rigged his BMW and I believe he was Ė

AJ: See hereís the problem. We canít solve this other stuff in that we canít prove, Ian. Then when the news goes and listens to this interview itís, you know, discussions of you know, things we canít prove. Thatís the problem.

Ian: Well Alex, if the guest wants to explore this, the book that Sir Peter wrote is `Voices From Another Roomí and heíd find it in the UK.

AJ: Okay. Well thank you for that. I really appreciate it.

MS: I know plenty of air marshalls, Iím sure I can find an air marshall who knows or knew Sir Peter.

AJ: Alright. And I guess up next is Wayne. Wayne, where are you calling us from? Okay, Wayne is gone. Letís go ahead and go to Bob in California. Bob go ahead. Youíre on the air Bob.

Bob: Iím kinda sorry Iím not on topic today. I wanted to call you about the Diebold machines that our county is using on us for touch-tone voting.

AJ: Yíknow what, Iím gonna put you on hold and weíll get to you coming up in the next segment. I wanna Ė

MS: Good morning Bob. Thatís an interesting subject but not one on which I could give any qualified comment.

AJ: [Laughs] Well weíve got so many callers here itís hard to figure out whoís calling in on subject. It would be nice if they did call in on subject.

MS: Youíre a popular guy, Alex, and I can understand having listened to your show why youíve got a lot of feedback.

AJ: Ah, well itís great. A lot of great people out there. Weíve obviously got to have you back on because youíre a very intelligent, very informative person because thereís not many people I get on the show who end up knowing more about intelligence matters, because I study it, pretty much perpetually. Youíve brought out some very important information and I really want to thank you for coming on the show Mr Shrimpton.

MS: Alex, itís been my pleasure and a privilege.

AJ: And for those that just joined us, again, Michael Shrimpton, a national intelligence lawyer or barrister in England, and he writes for major intelligence journals and has consulted around the world on intelligence matters and he was coming on, exposing the murder of Dr David Kelly. Do you think those that were responsible will ever be brought to justice sir?

MS: I donít think they will. I think those immediately responsible are already dead. My guess is they were taken out within 24-48 hours of the assassination. I suspect those involved in tasking the assassination will be dealt with informally and will be given valuable guidance and the public will not get to know about it, and my guess is that the coroner, Nick Gardiner, who has jurisdiction to hold an inquest will not hold an inquest. That means no jury will ever enquire into the reasons for David Kelly dying.

AJ: Alright. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Weíll be back folks.
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