Interview of Steve R. Pieczenik - Alex Jones Show - April 24, 2002 (Partial Transcript)

Dr. Pieczenik served as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, and James Baker. He is a Member of the Council on Foreign Relations

AJ: Our guest tonight is Dr. Steve Pieczenik and heís one of the worldís most experienced international crisis managers. He has over twenty years experience in resolving international crises, working for four U.S. administrations. Dr. Pieczenik served as Deputy Secretary of State under Henry Kissinger and Cyrus Vance and James Baker. Working with Secretary of State George Schultz, Dr. Pieczenik has used his psycho-political expertise for the Secretaryís mediation of conflict in the Middle East between Israel, Jordan, Syria, again it goes on and on. Heís got best selling books. Heís basically an infowarrior, a crisis manager. In fact he, according to this and some of the news articles that we pulled up on him, coined the phrase, if these articles are accurate, this isnít even in his bio here, but it says it there in some of the news articles, the ďcrisis mediationĒ and itís just endless. It says in one of the bios here that he is also a member of the CFR. Steve Pieczenik, I really appreciate you joining us on the show. Of course, he is also a doctor and PhD as well. Good to have you on the show this evening, Sir.

SP: Can I call you Alex?

AJ: You certainly can.

SP: You can call me Steve, Dr. Pieczenik or Steve, thatís fine with me.

AJ: Well, Sir, I mean youíve got a long bio here. (Crosstalk) just want to mention to the listeners out there.

SP: Sure, anyway what would you like to start with Alex?

AJ: Tell us a little bit more about yourself. Any key areas of your life, so folks know who you are.

SP: Sure, Iíll be happy to. I started as a, I was a medical doctor training at Cornell University Medical College here. I worked my way up through scholarships and then got into the military. I was, during the Vietnam War, I was a very young O6, as many of you know, that is a colonel at the age of 32. I then went on to my training in psychiatry, at the same time at Harvard, and at the same time, I got a PhD from MIT in International Relations.

AJ: Now that was the first MIT PhD, in this particular form of psychology.

SP: Correct, Alex. And the reason for that was that I understood very clearly, a long time ago, thirty years ago that the very essence of relationships between countries and understanding what our national security is about has to lie in the psychological political arena. Itís not, necessarily that I am interested in what mother did or your father did, but I am much more interested in what kind of image perception propaganda has been created against us and what propaganda information we have to create against someone else. For example, one of the presidents whom I served. Unfortunately, he is ill now. But one of the most brilliant presidents I served and most people donít recognize his brilliance. I think history will (garbled) and that is President Reagan, who was, as you know, an actor. But he had a photographic memory. And he understood the importance of psychology because he had been an actor and he understood that perception becomes reality. Well, this is a gentleman who using the study that I had worked on thirty years ago and had been intimately involved with him, using psychology and the concept of the perception, we were effectively able.. Itís a team effort. Iím not saying myself only. But Reagan was effectively able and the Reagan administration to bring down an entire Soviet empire without firing a gun by simply manipulating the psychology of perception. That we were forcing them into bankruptcy, which we were through the SBI (?) program and at the same time, manipulating their mind using the Chief of Staff. If you want me to go through the detail and showing him what our military capabilities were. And once he saw that both on land and on sea, he basically gave up. And that was Akhromeyev, who was then Chief of Staff of the Soviet military who was an Admiral, and who eventually committed suicide. But from that point on, we broke the entire, we won a war without having to fire a bullet. And that is the kind of thing that I talk about Ė psychological or psycho-political dimension.

AJ: We are talking to Dr. Steve Pieczenik and he has worked at the highest levels of the psychological operations for four administrations. You are talking about controlling paradigms Ė paradigm management.

SP: Well, thatís interesting. Iíve never used that word paradigm but you clearly Ė you must be a professor, Alex. But the notion is. No, what it is itís a more sophisticated concept. For example, what I do is, I donít just manage a conflict. I may sometimes be sent in on behalf of, for example, Secretary of State Schultz and Reagan. I was sent down to give Noriega a message officially that we would like for him to leave and we would provide the two planes, so and so and such and such. Well, he clearly, my sense was that he was not going to leave. And as many of you remember, this was a general who was chief of narco traffic out of Panama. And so, I would come back and report it.

AJ: Iíve got to stop you for a second. This is intriguing. I have seen it reported that then in the military build-up before the strike, that they employed the psychological technique of having the Delta Force and others do raids in and out of the area, touch down for six months, to de-sensitize them, so when the real attack came that they wouldnít respond with

SP: Thatís correct. I canít confirm or deny it but I can say yes. (laughs) Thatís exactly true.

AJ: You may not know it, but they had that on the History Channel.

SP: Oh, I didnít know that was on History, then I can say yes. OK, Iím glad you told me, yes. General Cisnero(?) and I, we worked on a psyops program, thatís psychological operation, and we are very good at that. I donít mean me. But the United States is. And weíve lost some of that capability over the past administration. Iím not pointing fingers. We lost about 40% of our military intelligence capability. And I would come back and every year talk at the National Defense University at Carlyle War College Ė as a way of showing my appreciation to the military and try to train them in psychological operations. Some of what we saw Ė we saw that very effectively done in Afghanistan. When we basically gave warning to all the civilians and then we basically went in and broke up the Taliban and then starting going after al Qaeda. We used a lot of psychological operations on (garbled) which I canít go into but we are using it right now, hopefully, around the world because of the 68 countries now with al Qaeda individuals, 68 countries filled with al Qaeda membership, including our own country. And weíre are using both psychological operations, we are using military....

AJ: Letís talk about his story. I mean we heard it was twenty dollar bills, now it one-hundred dollars bills, with just the picture of George Bush. And I mean thatís an obvious propaganda move and even the person pulling the hundred dollar bill out realizes that itís propaganda but still canít help having a pang of liking George Bush for that split second. So, isnít that acclimating them, conditioning them, whether they like it or not?

SP: Well thatís a good point, Alex. Yeah, I mean, there have been crises, for example, where I had three buildings here held hostage by a fundamentalist group called the Hanasi(?) Muslim. And he knew he was being manipulated. The FBI called me in and I used the Koran to take over the control and eventually he couldnít help but follow the orders that we giving to him and he eventually released the hostages. And so, in that sense, itís a very powerful tool and we are getting back into using that very effectively. Thatís exactly right, Alex.

What I do Ė Iíve done a lot of negotiation, I do a lot of stategy and tactics where Iíve done a lot of things. For example, with the Gorbachev and Reagan negotiations, with Arafat, I worked against him, I would track down terrorists and then I worked against Arafat, I worked with Osama bin Laden in í78, í81. In í79 when he was in Afghanistan and with Saddam Hussein when he was our ally and I worked against him when they werenít our ally.

AJ: Now again folks, we are talking to Dr. Steve Pieczenik and he is one of the infowarriors in four administrations, crafting much of the police that we have seen over the last twenty, thirty years. And I am so honored to have you on the show tonight. I hope we can keep you for a while.

SP: Iíd be happy to, Alex.

AJ: Iím not going to mince words, Iím going to cut to the chase.

SP: Sure. Go ahead.

AJ: About these technologies that you are talking about that are great for defending the country being used by the wordsmiths, by the spin doctors, in camps in this country against the American people. Whether itís gun control or big government or any of it. And Iíve seen the telltale signs all over the place. And thatís why we have you here, so hopefully the American people can become more aware of these tactics. I mean, certainly itís just 101 Marketing to use psychology, but itís getting a little more sophisicated than that. Can you ..

SP: Well, yeah, I agree with you Alex. One of the things that I have been in disagreement and it keeps coming out of the conservative movement. I mean Iíve worked with these - is that the issue of the suppression of our civil liberties is unjustified and particularly in this case on terrorists. And when I mean specifically, for example, I can understand that we have to have vigilance and we have to have surveillance. But you do not change the constitution or alter it to such a degree that we have posse comitatus, which I hope your audience understands Ė that means military control can come in and take over civilian control. Thatís a no-no.

AJ: Well I had the former professors on this show, the former JAG colonels and generals, they say it was gone in í96 and they are concerned about it.

SP: Iíve very concerned about it because what happens is, you know generals Ė I have a lot of respect for but itís not generals that make the decision. It will be a consultant who works for somebody in the White House who may not necessarily know what he or she may be doing. And then we are talking about civil liberties and profiling Ė where you suddenly get thrown off the plane. They wonít tell you why. You could be blond, blue haired, you could be dark and brown eyed. I mean I was almost in preventative detention down in Reno, Nevada, and I said to the police, can I use the word terrorism? He said no. Can I use the words, are you arresting me? He said no. Then why are you sorting me out? And they couldnít give me an answer. I said you are making a big mistake, you are violating my first amendment, you are violating my second amendment, and every other amendment. Can I talk about guns? No. So basically thatís where I agree with you and your audience and that is we cannot let the federal government or any government suppress our liberties in any way whatsoever. Now, is there propaganda thatís given to the American public. Absolutely. And I say that...

AJ: Let me stop you professor. What was this story where they come out and go Ė oh weíve got the office of strategic influence, strategic laws and manipulation, and then we are going to activate it. But we all know it was already operating for hundreds of years. Every country has one. Then, so that was a lie to say it new. Then they say, oh we are not going to use it anymore, we were just proposing it. Your take on that.

SP: Well, I was actually, but donít call me professor. One thing I am not is a professor of anything, but I do join you in saying that I tried to stop that vehemently on the radio. My neighbor who is around the block was in charge of that and I donít know her all that well, Ms Clarke. It was clear to me that they didnít know what they were doing. What they were doing was creating what we call of fusion of what we call blackops, black operations meaning covert, and white noise, that means real facts and information. Well, you donít do that in the military. The reason you donít do that anywhere in the United States, but particularly in the military is that you compromise the integrity of our military and at the same time, it was the stupidest idea Iíve ever seen because they said they could divide the lies from the non-lies and I said thatís ridiculous. Furthermore, we have had problems in the past where the CIA and other organizations that instill disinformation in overseas countries and American reporters pick it up as fact. And then they have been really hoodwinked and the American public doesnít know what is fact and what is reality.

AJ: And then that discredits the media organs which are needed by the government to form public opinion.

SP: Well, itís interesting that you say that. There has been an interesting kind of balance. CNN has been very, I would say, pro-Palestinian or pro-Arab in my ways, what I would consider. Whereas, thank God my friend Roger Ailes is the head of the MSNBC network, which is more conservative that the FOX network, where you can see some questions. Like Chris Matthews and the OíReilly Factor, where we can get into some issues and really start discussing them from another perspective. That is, it doesnít have a particular bias that is lent by the government. Now, itís true, sometimes the government brings in, you know, they want to give their message. But if that message is out of whack, Iím more than happy to go on the air and say that guy is not telling the truth. And thatís why I go on these radio stations to say look, in my opinion, now Iím not gospel and Iím not, everything I say is not written in stone. Iím as human as anybody else. But Iíve had a lot of experience. And one of the things that I do not believe in, is the notion that policy, thatís what is unfortunately true about Washington. Politicians consider most of us, as American citizens, as pretty stupid and not very bright. And they think they can herd us around. And the answer is, they are mistaken. And Iíve said that repeatedly, that they have underestimated the intelligence of the American public, repeatedly, administration after administration. But this time around, Alex, we donít have the flexibility, because we are in what we would call a constant struggle or war against the El-Jihad and the Muslims Ė Islamic fundamentalists who are more than happy to destroy much of what we have. And we canít afford, at the same time, to be told all kinds of stories that do not correspond to reality. So that is where I do agree with you, Alex.

AJ: Okay, thank you for that. You were, again, deputy assistant Secretary of State....

SP: Thatís correct.

AJ: under Henry Kissinger, Vance and Baker, in key positions in many other administrations, you are also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, correct?

SP: Yeah, I know what you are getting to. But Iím also a member of the National Rifle Association, too. I didnít put that down. The real issue of the Council on Foreign Relations, this is where you would be concerned and others is that the Council on Foreign Relaions was once, many, many years ago, Iíd say 15 or 20 years ago, a very elite Northeastern organization. What it has really turned into is pretty much, with all due respect, I think that is an old resume, but basically I havenít attended a meeting in well over a year or two because it has become very much a rotary club. Basically it is the same people, returning by, saying the same thing and I eventually found it of very little help. It was an organization basically designed not to influence or direct everything, although, many of the secretaries of state have come out of there previously. Particularly before World War II, right after World War II.

AJ: Since 1922, when it got founded, it was out of the Royal Institute of International Affairs..

SP: Right, it was the Rockefeller family that funded it and built it up and there was a sense that there was a conspiracy here and I can tell you for a fact that a member of the group that you are talking to, that it is not any more conspiratorial there. There is a far more serious organization that we are concerned about and thatís called the Carlyle Group. Thatís a private equity group run by a guy named Carlucci who is a former Secretary of Defense that are profiting very handsomely from this war. And Iím very much concerned about it because it because it could spread it.

AJ: See, thatís amazing because I got some of the Ė I donít know if you knew that some people were making some transcripts of some of your comments on KFI and Iíve got them here, I donít know if they are accurate. But in these, you talk about the CIA and bin Laden in July and the rest of this ...

SP: Correct.

AJ: Thatís accurate, you said that?

SP: Yes, that is accurate.

AJ: Okay, Sir, I want to hear this from you when we get back.


AJ: We are talking to Steve Pieczenik and he has got more titles than the Queen of England. I mean he has been all over the place. No, Iím serious. You have really led, and I envy all the dangerous and exciting situations youíve been in and I didnít even know if I could believe this bio and did some a little LexisNexis search and you actually play yourself down a bit on your website. Why donít you give that to them Steve.

SP: Oh, I canít. Alex, I think you did a good job. Iím more than happy. Letís talk about bin Laden.

AJ: Your website for those who donít know it...

SP: Oh well, my website is and I have a new book coming out called, ďActive PursuitĒ under the name of Alexander Court, and another one called ďActive MeasureĒ under Alexander Court, C-o-u-r-t, that will be coming out this week actually. Itís about the violation of Sweden, how hypocritical Sweden was during World War II, in establishing neutrality and actually helped the Nazis.

AJ: Yeah, they made a lot of money off of it.

SP: Oh, they made a huge amount and the Wallenburg family in particular, made a lot of money and then they violated everything we stood for. And we forced Raoul Wallenburg to join the OSS to make up for their totally treacherous behavior but the worst part about it was that I wanted to. See, I use fiction to put reality in. And one of the comments was, I went after one of their famous Nobel Prize winners, an extreme liberal, by the name of Gunnar Nordahl, who accused us... I remember when I was up in North Korea and I saw him, he said that Americans were despicable, we didnít like human nature and all of that. I said Iím going after this guy and I found out and I put it in the book. And the Swedes have never denied it. This is a famous Nobel Peace Prize winner and he wrote the welfare state. How do you create the welfare state? Well, of all things, Alex, what happened was, and this was a fact they never denied and I put it in the book in ďActive MeasureĒ by Alexander Court, and you will read it there. What he did was to sterilize innocent Swedish women between 1945 and 1974. He sterilized over 75,000 innocent Swedish women who had nothing more than perhaps, you know, abnormal a little bit of behavior problem, or they were teenagers. But the real reason was for economic reasons. He didnít want to have any problems with a potential abnormal child so they thought this was the best way to maintain their financial capability, maintain their welfare state. So much for greatest of free....

AJ: Sounds like Margaret Sanger.

SP: Well, itís a lot more deadly than Margaret Sanger. This is a real effort to really neutralize their entire population and the guys are saying you are doing it for the welfare of the state. Thatís called euthanasia.

AJ: Absolutely and we see that now being legalized in many of those Scandinavian countries.

SP: Thatís correct and they donít... they have denied...they have said we are looking at, and actually the kids donít know about it. But itís one of the things that again, again not all Swedes are bad but the point is that their government has been playing two-faced with the world for a long time, as many governments have and that is what your point is, Alex.

AJ: Now Dr. Pieczenik, what I want to talk to you about tonight....

SP: is bin Laden and the....

AJ: Letís get to that. We are about to break and start the next hour. Letís talk about it then if youíve got time right now.

SP: Absolutely, Iíll give you the time.

AJ: I want to talk about Henry Kissinger. I mean this guy, Iíve got his quotes on record where he says if there is a big enough crisis, weíd accept a new world order, global government. I mean he has said stuff like this on television and you worked under this guy. From talking to you, it sounds like youíre 180 from the views of Henry Kissinger.

SP: Well, you are right on the nose. I, this I can share with most of your audience, that I was asked to work for him personally and I said no. I couldnít, for many reasons that I donít want to get into but primarily that I didnít have the temperament to tolerate his type of, what we call, narcissistic behavior. He is very impulsive, childish and he rants and raves. As a psychiatrist, I donít tolerate that and set limits very quickly. Secondly, I didnít agree with his views but his deputy, Lawrence Eagleburger, who has been under (garbled) management has seen me negotiate the release of about seventeen hostages, (garbled) and he asked me if Iíd come on board and work for the U.S. government. I said, no problem. I had a military commission. So the answer is you are right.


AJ: We are excited to have a great guest, an intelligent guest, like Dr. Steve Pieczenik on the show. He has worked in four administrations. He has worked for the deputy secretary of state, hostage negotiator, the list goes on and on. He is a critically acclaimed author of psycho-political novels and co-creator of the best-selling Tom Clancyís Op-Center and Tom Clancyís Netforce series. He is a Harvard psychiatrist with an MD from Cornel University and PhD in International Relations from MIT. The doctor served for four presidential administrations. Again, now letís start getting into this whole bin Laden situation and Iíve got a bunch of emails and I got a partial transcript of it and I called the station to confirm that you were on but they didnít have a transcript. And....

SP: You know, what I said was Alex, this is following issue.

AJ: We are talking about bin Laden for those that just joined us.

SP: Right, but we are talking about bin Laden. The issue is what the relationship is between the bin Laden family and the Bush family. Itís much more complicated than has been revealed, than has been revealed by anyone. And that is that it goes back for several decades.

AJ: Back into the mid-70s.

SP: It goes back, exactly. They have now, Bush, Sr, who I have served as well, and Bush, Jr. have literally gone to the bin Laden family and the Carlyle Group. This is the private equity group here in Washington, which the bin Laden family have been in. And they claimed they only had 2 million dollars, but my sense is that it was far more extensive, that they owned all kinds of companies, including one of the largest conglomerates in our military contracting. And bin Laden was, remember, our ally, supposedly our ally in 1979, í80, when he worked with us to drive the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan. He was just a young kid.

AJ: Brzezinski talks about that in ďThe Grand ChessboardĒ.

SP: Right, and that he then turned against us and we created a political Frankenstein. And thatís not the first time weíve done that Alex and this is what I want to tell your audience.

AJ: You are saying it is blowback.

SP: Itís blowback, exactly. And what I was saying about a blowback was that if we tend to have a pattern here in the United States and it has to do, I think primarily with the fact that we donít have good intelligence or good CIA capability to handle all of our so-called in between or gray-zone friends/enemies. And what happens is we just dump them. It was the same thing with Noriega. We had to go in and send in 22,000 troops. It was the same thing with Saddam Hussein, we fought with him for five years against Iran. We killed over a million people. We supplied him with the actual biological and chemical weapons. It was the CIA that did that. Suddenly we find ourselves at war with him. That was a blowback. Then we go to war and we donít finish the war. Now we are going back to war again. And I am trying to say, wait a minute guys, if you messed up the first time, what makes you think you are going to do it again the second time. And so we have a blowback with Osama. But what made it more difficult was, I found out through my sources that he had had kidney disease. And as a physician, I knew that he had to have two dialysis machines and he was dying. And you could see those in those films, those made-up photos that they were sending us out of nowhere. I mean, suddenly, we would see a video of bin Laden today and then out of nowhere, they said oh it was sent to us anonymously, meaning that someone in the government, our government, was trying to keep up the morale on our side and say oh we still have to chase this guy when, in fact, heís been dead for months.

AJ: You are talking about the obvious fat guy, sitting there that looked nothing like bin Laden.

SP: Youíve got it. I mean the whole thing was a, I mean it was such a hoax. I mean I said you would have to be, you know, blind and stupid to not realize that this is really being manipulating in trying to manipulate us.

AJ: The type of psyops that weíd see coming out of Dr. Steve Pieczenik.

SP: Itís not the kind of thing that I would do to the American public. But the more important part was that ...


AJ: We are talking about Osama bin Laden, the CIA asset during the Ď80s, right into the early Ď90s and now the mainstream reports here out of Europe and the U.S. confirming that he was involved in the situation in the Bosnian and the Serb war. And then what Dr. Pieczenik is calling the classic term ďblowbackĒ Ė the bad boy getting out of control and this report of him in the American hospital. Itís been in the Washington Times, you name it, getting nursed back to health, meeting with the CIA Section Chief for ten days. Dr. Pieczenik, a former undersecretary of State and member of the CFR, you name it, can say, oh yeah thatís true but heís got an explanation for it. Please elaborate doctor.

SP: Well, I donít have a very good explanation. I was shocked as well as you were in that what is a Station Chief doing seeing Osama bin Laden when he was already declared an international war criminal under the previous administration and then the Station Chief testified, with several others, that the whole family Ė the notion that the family of bin Laden when they evacuated and left this country and then was subsequently interviewed, said they had no relation with bin Laden and that they didnít know where he was and all that nonsense. Itís just sheer nonsense. And so when that popped up and I saw that, I said there is a lot of things going on here that donít make sense. And that means that they are using bin Laden in a way that the United States government or you call Big Brother is basically using it in a very, ah, ah, ah, how should I say this, nefarious, in a very dangerous way to manipulate the American public.

AJ: A pretext to get more control.

SP: Well, itís a pretext to get, I donít know if I would say more control. They are not very good at controlling this. Because itís really, it has really discredited the ability of the government to handle a simple situation without having to insult the intelligence of the American citizen.

AJ: And you are saying earlier that you brushed up against this at an airport, I believe you said Nevada?

SP: Oh yeah, in Reno, Nevada, where literally the police came and just took me away. And I said, what are you after? They searched me three to four times. I said, look you know, Iíve written these profiles. They didnít answer anything. Thatís called preventative detention. I said am I under arrest? They said no. I said what are you holding me for? And, can I tell you, well I wonít use that language on the air what I said to them but basically, this kind of activity is just totally unacceptable for the United States of America.

AJ: And again, according to the press reports, you are the guy that coined the phrase, or did you, ďconflict managementĒ or..

SP: I use what is called, I call it ďcrisis management.Ē Iím not sure Iím the original one, but Iíve used it for most of my life and basically every crisis from Arafat, in evacuating our soldiers, to evacuating our civilians, to going into hot spots in Cambodia and trying to stop Pol Pot from another killing field and still being on the hit list of a lot of terrorist groups all over the world. Still on the number one hit list of the Red Brigade in Italy, they still want me.

AJ: Okay doctor, everything you are saying makes sense and we have had other CFR people on here couple of times and they are elitists. They..

SP: I donít want you to think of me as a CFR, all I did was pay dues. Iím havenít attended a meeting in four or five years. So if you could use another title, Iíd appreciate it Alex.

AJ: Alright, I mean there are so many, my point is Iíve had these other guys up and theyíre pompous, they donít even seem that smart. Compared to having another talk show host on, but you seem very intelligent and obviously so, I mean working around all these people. I mean here you are talking about this bin Laden situation Ė give us your intel on that or what you have heard of the info you have...

SP: Well, itís not a good situation but it basically says to me that this is an orchestrated type of war and I think that I didnít want to believe it for a very long time. And then I said that somebody is orchestrating something here with the agreement of the bin Laden family, knowing fully well that he would die. And I think that Musharraf, the President of Pakistan, spelled the beans by accident three months ago when he said that bin Laden was dead because his kidney dialysis machines were destroyed in East Afghanistan. Well, he was one of few that knew that he had a kidney problem. That wasnít well known before. Everybody thought he had a heart disease

AJ: Exactly, but we have him in this American, called the American hospital, and that report was confirmed

SP: That was confirmed that he had kidney disease. So, what happened there is that we have Bush, Sr., Bush, Jr, dealing with the bin Laden family and then going to war with this organization that we effectively created in 1970s and 80s, when we drove out the Soviet Union. And that was the conversion, again blowback, of the young mujahideen where we gave them armament through the CIA again and that was no great secret. Everybody knew that and then there was a blowback.

AJ: They knew the blowback was coming and allowed it to happen. Again, I am absolutely blown away, doctor, because this is in all the evidence that I have. I have over a hundred mainstream articles, government documents, Northwoods, you name it, on in the government prior knowledge section. And, to have you up on this show, I mean I didnít know which direction you were going to go and I just had some of the transcripts from another interview that you did, but itís amazing and now more and more people are saying it. But look, they created bin Laden, they use him, the family is in bed with the Bushes back in the mid-70s, and you are talking about a stage-managed war. I mean, you just said it. I mean, boil it down for us. What are you saying, a former deputy secretary of state, what are you saying?

SP: Well what I am saying is, I mean as a deputy assistant, what I am saying is that I am coming to the same conclusion that you came to. And that is, and I hope Iím wrong, but more and more evidence points to the fact that somehow, given who the people are that they appointed to the Dept. of Defense, they were civilians who had never been in the military. The same guys who were in Iran-Contra dealings. And then you have the same people who are involved with Saddam Hussein Ė Cheney and you have Condoleezza Rice who really wasnít all that much impression and the same whole cast, very tightly controlled and they are managing something that doesnít make sense to me. And that is, yeah there was an attack on the World Trade Center, yet we donít really know who did it. And the president shows and says well here I have the evidence that bin Laden did it. Well, if bin Laden did it, then why was the first mention and the first order that was given, and I think you would remember this, so would your audience, is the FBI has to evacuate the entire family. If you were to go into a criminal scene or investigation, you wouldnít say to everybody there, if you wanted to know who the culprit is, and you say oh thatís the culprit, letís get rid of the whole family and not ask anybody any questions. That was a big mistake.

AJ: Thatís another red flag, another smoking gun that I didnít even put in my 144-minute tour de force film thatís has so much evidence every 5 seconds, thereís some new document or news release or public statement. Youíve got them, when all other aircraft are grounded, other than the military, youíve got jets flying out of Florida and Boston ferrying this Royal family out of here.

SP: Thatís exactly right. And so the question becomes, whatís going on here? And then the last one is of course is the fourth plane which had seventy-five minutes, in other words, those of you who are particularly Ė fighter pilots understand this. You canít fly at about three or four-hundred feet off the ground and at seventy-five minutes out, you have to go out to the Chesapeake and the ocean and you are telling me that we couldnít get fighter planes in there? When we had already had two attacks and you are telling me that that was not a military pilot who was trained to crash into the Dept. of Defense? Thatís unbelievable and that was a sleeper. So, I canít put that all together, but Iíll put all together and itís not a good picture, Alex.

AJ: What was a sleeper?

SP: The guy, the one flying that plane into the Dept. of Defense. Those guys were sleepers. I mean youíve got to explain, does your audience understand what, a sleeper is a concept that came out and itís actually, they are agents that are trained that came out of the old cold war where the Russians would create and have individuals who were trained to kill and then they would be activated many years later. If you saw the movie, The Manchurian Candidate, youíd get a good idea of that.

AJ: MKUltra mind control

SP: MKUltra mind control, exactly.

AJ: You know this is incredible. Weíve got one of the pre-eminent hostage negotiators, psyops guy, you know, worked with Tom Clancy, worked in four administrations, and then here you are with all the information.

SP: It is very disturbing to me Alex as it is to anyone of our American citizens who is not buying it.

AJ: So why did you decide to start going public with this? Was it getting....

SP: I went public with this, no, I went public, well Iíve always been kind of a maverick. But I was offered an O7, and I said look I work alone, Iím a singleton basically and I work on my own and I work for my country. I never got a pension. I never really got paid much for what I did. I often had to pay back most of the expenses. Iím not telling you how great I am as an American. But as an American citizen, the reason that I went public, the first thing that bothered me was when Vice President Cheney was (garbled) for having had at Haliburton, and that big corporation that he had in oil, which he was given $35 million for all his knowledge in oil which he had none of, he had been a former secretary of defense, he had put in a embargo on Iraq and then he denied that he didnít know anything about the embargo Ė the fact that they had violated the embargo by having a $75 million joint venture with Iraq and at that point I said, that was the straw that broke the camelís back for me. Cheney was just outright lying and he committed a crime by violating an embargo. And I said these guys are in trouble and Iím going out publicly to say this canít continue. Not as an American citizen, Iím not going back to war. Iím not going back and letting American soldiers die Ė for something that may have been concocted or created. Itís one thing if we are attacked by the Nazis or the Japanese or something. Iím not denying that we were attacked. The question is who did what and how it was orchestrated and if it was orchestrated, then we have a real problem and that will destroy our democracy. Thatís why I went public Ė and you know that.

AJ: Doctor, stay right there. I am shaken by this. You know, David Schippers, the guy who impeached Bill Clinton, said basically the same things on this show and more and more great American inside the system, cold warriors are blowing the whistle. Weíll be right back with our guest.


AJ: ..Deputy Assistant Secretary of State, he is best-selling author, works with Tom Clancy, you name it and he is concerned. Iím glad that more and more Americans are concerned about government prior knowledge and involvement in allowing September 11th to take place. And, you know, Dr. Pieczenik, a lot of people donít understand, they say well if the government had prior knowledge of September 11th or allowed it to take place, like FDR allowing the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. They had it on the History Channel. Well, how did those guys then fly aircraft into buildings? And my only point is this: all you need is a double agent like bin Laden who we know has been an asset of the CIA, to go in and hype up the Islamics. Then the door is open and they are allowed to come in ...

SP: Well, you know, Iíve got .. Go ahead, Alex, keep going...

AJ: Then their names are kept out of the Customs computers. Then the watch list doesnít get to the airlines. Fifty-eight minutes they had to shoot down the second plane that hit the World Trade Center and, as you said, seventy plus minutes to get that other plane. So, example after example, and then somebody with an incredible track record and serious resume like yourself comes out with an analysis that I donít even come out with on the air, even though thatís what I suspected Ė most Americans canít grasp sleeper agents. If you start talking about this, because of the military precision of the Pentagon attack or even what we saw with the twin towers. I mean, again, elaborate on this for us. This is earth shattering.

SP: Well, itís earth shattering for me, too. It was the kind of thing that I wouldnít want to believe. I mean, you know itís not like I just came out of the closet and I was a whistle blower. I want the audience to understand. Iím a patriot and Iíve always felt strongly that the reason that I served my country is because itís an honor to serve, to serve the people. I donít serve a institution or a government that got out of control. And by the way, I wrote a book about this years ago, called ďState of EmergencyĒ where I said that we are going to have fights about the devolution of federal power, but basically it was over water rights in the Colorado River and occurred over Nevada and Arizona and thatís whatís happening Ė itís States vs. federal rights.

AJ: Sagebrush rebellion.

SP: You got it. And letís go back to that. And then whatís bothering me Alex and I think you articulated it better than I have was I didnít want to believe what I was putting together. And you are beginning to articulate it and this has been going on for well over six to nine months. I mean I have been saying for a long time even to the individuals involved and whom I know personally in the White House and elsewhere, you are making a mistake by bringing in the people that you are doing, you are signaling to those of us who are knowledgeable these are not serious people. These are people who have caused problems in the past. And something is going on here. And thatís why when you get a guy like Cheney, Vice President, believe me this is a micromanager. There is nothing that goes by that he does not know and thatís the reason heís got five heart attacks. But I donít find him, not one of them has served in the military, other than Armitage. But not one of them has ever....

AJ: Richard Armitage, this guy is hooked up with the short trading, caught red-handed on United and American in that story...

SP: Is that true, is that what you have him on?

AJ: Oh yeah, we got it in triplicate.

SP: Okay, well Iím not surprised, part of the neocon group again is a conservative group of guys who come from the extreme left that suddenly have an epiphany and go to the extreme right. So one of the reasons that I was concerned is that weíre heading in for a war that is partly orchestrated by us and we went into Afghanistan and that was one of the phoniest things that I have ever seen where General Kelly said, and he finally admitted, that we made a mistake. We used these war lords as the surrogates for fighting instead of American soldiers. And Iím saying, what is this a joke? I mean what idiot is going to believe that. I mean anyone who knows the war lords, knows that they are the most distrustful, dishonest guys in the world. They run narco traffic through Afghanistan. We went through this before after ten years, twenty years before. So what is this nonsense about suddenly we win a war in Kandahar and Mazar-e-Sharif in twenty minutes and it turns out we didnít win anything. What happened it was a revolving door. Everything that we were going after, al Qaeda, they took in and made their exchanges and then it had to do with issues of a pipeline being put down in the north of Afghanistan. It goes back to the Carlyle Group and Unocal. Unocal, then I started checking the records, put up a one-hundred billion dollar bid and this is open record. You can check it in front of the Congressional committee and UNOCAL and thatís one of the big five put up one-hundred billion to put up an oil pipeline up to the Caspian Sea to that base where they found trillions of gallons of barrels of oil and we could dump the Middle East that way. And that started to explain to me Ė well, youíve got Cheney, you got Bush, the oil boys, they are concerned about that pipline, youíve got the Carlyle Group and then youíve got the neocons forcing us to get into wars with people who have weapons of mass destruction. Well, there are a lot of countries that have weapons of mass destruction. That doesnít mean we go to war with them.

AJ: Professor, weíve got to break again. This is one of the most riveting shows we have ever done. Itís amazing to have you on the air with us and I know you donít want to be called professor, its says that in one of the bios. Doctor, weíll be back after this quick break.


AJ: Steve, I have to be honest with you. I though that you were going to come on and make excuses for what happened with the bin Ladens being in with the Bushes and...

SP: No way, Alex, Iím an American. The one thing you donít do as an American is you donít play and mess with my constitutional freedom. I donít care who you are, what your name is, what you think you are. When you mess with that, you are going to see me retaliate. And I warned the White House. I warned them, quite frankly. Some of the people who are involved because they know me well. I said if I can help you up there and I helped both Bushes to get elected. Trust me, Iím going to help bring you down because you donít play with the American public and their freedom. And you donít play with lives, American soldiersí lives that I value, because not only am I a physician but having been in wars, seeing these boys die for who, for whom, and the answer is no - as long as I live and I have a breath, I will still fight for that constitution. The constitution was based, created by men who understood what it meant not to centralize power, to make sure that we had the freedom of the individual and that the individual was more important than the State.

AJ: And that is why our country has produced so much and now itís all being squandered. So, again,

PS: We are not producing anything Alex. Weíve become a third-world country. Right now youíve got China is a big problem. They are producing more than we are. And what are we sending out Ė billions of dollars. We are creating a nonsense organization, Homeland Security. Iíve never heard of such idiocy. Seventy-six billion dollars for a man who has never run anything, totally emasculated, Tom Ridge, a nice man, as a governor who doesnít know anything. He never saw a terrorist in his life.

AJ: Iíve heard of Homeland Security Ė thatís what Sturm Stoffel, SS stood for.

PS: Well, I donít want to go that far but the point is what came out of the seventy-six billion dollars. You got the color red, yellow, green and blue to tell me, what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do?

AJ: They are going to have nightly alerts and FEMA is going to activate our TV and radios, they told us.

PS: Sure, that will be the day.

AJ: Recapping before we get into any other subjects that youíd like to discuss.

PS: Let me recap it very simply so that I make my position. I have not just suddenly come out of the closet. IĎve come out in a very distinct position my whole life. I stand by what I believe. I have served different administrations not because I served the administration but I served the American public. Thatís the way I viewed it. I was the only one who resigned. I mean Cyrus Vance is proud that he resigned on Carter but I resigned over Cyrus Vanceís handling of the Iran hostage siege because he sent me one of these left wing nuts by the name of Ramsey Clark. I knew we would never have a chance to deal with the hostage negotiation and like chess, when you open up the move, you lose a lot of time. And we were in deep trouble. So, I said Mr. Secretary, you are incompetent. And so I quit and thatís the kind of guy I am. And thatís why Iím not in this administration or others. When they called me in, believe me, there is a lot that hit the fan. And the reason why I come back in is because I cleaned it up for the American public. Not for the president whoís elected, not for the people there because they have become too self-important. What we have created, itís not a democracy but we created for ourselves is common royalty. And they think they are that indispensable and the answer is no man is indispensable to lead this country. No man. And every citizen is indispensable. And when you get to that point where we have to salute the flag Ė we have five different police forces here in Washington and jet planes flying overhead. Give me a break. And thatís what I believe in. The American way of life is very simple. Letís us do what we do. Leave us alone. Donít get in my back pocket and donít come into my bedroom. Thatís how I believe.



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